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	<title>Comments on: &quot;Because&quot; versus &quot;so that&quot;.</title>
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		<title>By: Jud</title>
		<link>http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2007/06/because-versus-so-that/comment-page-1/#comment-129</link>
		<dc:creator>Jud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jun 2007 12:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The difference between &quot;because&quot; and &quot;so that&quot; is also key to the misunderstanding of probability behind the &quot;tornado in a junkyard&quot; fallacy.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The chance of random variation acted on by selection achieving a particular goal identified in advance is minuscule.  The chance that the same mechanisms will achieve some lasting changes that we can look back on and call &quot;evolution&quot; is a near-certainty.  (It&#039;s the distinction between the chance of me winning the lottery - unfortunately, minuscule - and *someone* winning the lottery, which nearly always occurs, week by week.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The difference between &#8220;because&#8221; and &#8220;so that&#8221; is also key to the misunderstanding of probability behind the &#8220;tornado in a junkyard&#8221; fallacy.</p>
<p>The chance of random variation acted on by selection achieving a particular goal identified in advance is minuscule.  The chance that the same mechanisms will achieve some lasting changes that we can look back on and call &#8220;evolution&#8221; is a near-certainty.  (It&#8217;s the distinction between the chance of me winning the lottery &#8211; unfortunately, minuscule &#8211; and *someone* winning the lottery, which nearly always occurs, week by week.)</p>
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		<title>By: TR Gregory</title>
		<link>http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2007/06/because-versus-so-that/comment-page-1/#comment-128</link>
		<dc:creator>TR Gregory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jun 2007 11:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2007/06/because-versus-so-that/#comment-128</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;At that point, I&#039;d say it&#039;s fair to say, e.g., &quot;they evolved longer legs in order to run faster&quot;. &lt;/i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I realize that you use this only as shorthand, but it is indistinguishable from a hybrid between the teleology of Lamarckism and the inevitability of orthogenesis.  Given that Lamarckian (mis)understanding of evolution is very common among students and non-experts, I would stay far away from anything that will only exacerbate confusion.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;What really happens is still what I described.  Why did gazelles evolve longer legs?  &lt;i&gt;Because&lt;/i&gt; undirected (&quot;random&quot;) mutations that produced longer legs were preserved in the population while mutations causing shorter legs were eliminated as a result of a selection pressure imposed by fast-running predators.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;More specifically, the genetic composition and associated phenotypic characters of the population changed because longer legs, which resulted from a mutation(s), allowed those mutant alleles to be passed on more often than the alleles associated with shorter-legged, slower-running phenotypes.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Gazelles evolved longer legs &quot;because&quot;, not &quot;so that&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>At that point, I&#8217;d say it&#8217;s fair to say, e.g., &#8220;they evolved longer legs in order to run faster&#8221;. </i></p>
<p>I realize that you use this only as shorthand, but it is indistinguishable from a hybrid between the teleology of Lamarckism and the inevitability of orthogenesis.  Given that Lamarckian (mis)understanding of evolution is very common among students and non-experts, I would stay far away from anything that will only exacerbate confusion.</p>
<p>What really happens is still what I described.  Why did gazelles evolve longer legs?  <i>Because</i> undirected (&#8220;random&#8221;) mutations that produced longer legs were preserved in the population while mutations causing shorter legs were eliminated as a result of a selection pressure imposed by fast-running predators.</p>
<p>More specifically, the genetic composition and associated phenotypic characters of the population changed because longer legs, which resulted from a mutation(s), allowed those mutant alleles to be passed on more often than the alleles associated with shorter-legged, slower-running phenotypes.</p>
<p>Gazelles evolved longer legs &#8220;because&#8221;, not &#8220;so that&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: David Harmon</title>
		<link>http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2007/06/because-versus-so-that/comment-page-1/#comment-127</link>
		<dc:creator>David Harmon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jun 2007 00:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2007/06/because-versus-so-that/#comment-127</guid>
		<description>Whoops, that was a compositional blip.  The later &quot;good enough&quot; was supposed to refer to the point that in practice, the ur-gazelles mostly need to be faster than their ur-tigers.  After that, getting even faster yields diminishing returns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoops, that was a compositional blip.  The later &#8220;good enough&#8221; was supposed to refer to the point that in practice, the ur-gazelles mostly need to be faster than their ur-tigers.  After that, getting even faster yields diminishing returns.</p>
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		<title>By: David Harmon</title>
		<link>http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2007/06/because-versus-so-that/comment-page-1/#comment-126</link>
		<dc:creator>David Harmon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jun 2007 00:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2007/06/because-versus-so-that/#comment-126</guid>
		<description>While that&#039;s certainly the base condition, I would point out that the accumulation of traits and surroundings (for example, specialized niches) can actually &quot;create&quot; purpose.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;For example, once an ur-gazelle type committs to &quot;running away&quot; as their primary response to predators, any change that makes them better runners (other things being equal) is more likely to stabilize, while anything that interferes with running, must offer a drastic advantage to be retained.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;At that point, I&#039;d say it&#039;s fair to say, &lt;i&gt;e.g.&lt;/i&gt;, &quot;they evolved longer legs in order to run faster&quot;.  Their prior evolution has bequeathed them a mandate that constrains future developments, to the degree that &quot;being a good ur-gazelle&quot; now implies &quot;running fast&quot;.  Rephrasing that in turns of &quot;purpose&quot; may not be strictly equivalent, but it&#039;s good enough for casual discussions.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;(I&#039;m ignoring questions of &quot;good enough&quot;, because in the long term that tends to be a moving target.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While that&#8217;s certainly the base condition, I would point out that the accumulation of traits and surroundings (for example, specialized niches) can actually &#8220;create&#8221; purpose.  </p>
<p>For example, once an ur-gazelle type committs to &#8220;running away&#8221; as their primary response to predators, any change that makes them better runners (other things being equal) is more likely to stabilize, while anything that interferes with running, must offer a drastic advantage to be retained.  </p>
<p>At that point, I&#8217;d say it&#8217;s fair to say, <i>e.g.</i>, &#8220;they evolved longer legs in order to run faster&#8221;.  Their prior evolution has bequeathed them a mandate that constrains future developments, to the degree that &#8220;being a good ur-gazelle&#8221; now implies &#8220;running fast&#8221;.  Rephrasing that in turns of &#8220;purpose&#8221; may not be strictly equivalent, but it&#8217;s good enough for casual discussions.</p>
<p>(I&#8217;m ignoring questions of &#8220;good enough&#8221;, because in the long term that tends to be a moving target.)</p>
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		<title>By: RPM</title>
		<link>http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2007/06/because-versus-so-that/comment-page-1/#comment-123</link>
		<dc:creator>RPM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jun 2007 14:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2007/06/because-versus-so-that/#comment-123</guid>
		<description>Collins is pretty bad when it comes to evolution. It&#039;s become quite apparent that he doesn&#039;t understand how evolution works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Collins is pretty bad when it comes to evolution. It&#8217;s become quite apparent that he doesn&#8217;t understand how evolution works.</p>
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		<title>By: TR Gregory</title>
		<link>http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2007/06/because-versus-so-that/comment-page-1/#comment-111</link>
		<dc:creator>TR Gregory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jun 2007 12:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I would not use the term &quot;progress&quot; (from or towards) in discussing evolutionary processes, but I agree with the general correspondence between the concepts you noted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would not use the term &#8220;progress&#8221; (from or towards) in discussing evolutionary processes, but I agree with the general correspondence between the concepts you noted.</p>
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		<title>By: J. T. Burman</title>
		<link>http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2007/06/because-versus-so-that/comment-page-1/#comment-110</link>
		<dc:creator>J. T. Burman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jun 2007 12:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2007/06/because-versus-so-that/#comment-110</guid>
		<description>In a paper &quot;in press&quot; at &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.psych.ucalgary.ca/thpsyc/&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Theory &amp; Psychology&lt;/a&gt;, I make a similar point: there is an important distinction to be made between &quot;progress from&quot; and &quot;progress toward.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;In this case, &quot;because&quot; implies &quot;progress from&quot; (and is therefore evolutionary or developmental), while &quot;so that&quot; implies &quot;progress toward&quot; (and is therefore vitalist or teleological).&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I like the way you put it....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a paper &#8220;in press&#8221; at <a HREF="http://www.psych.ucalgary.ca/thpsyc/" REL="nofollow">Theory &#038; Psychology</a>, I make a similar point: there is an important distinction to be made between &#8220;progress from&#8221; and &#8220;progress toward.&#8221;</p>
<p>In this case, &#8220;because&#8221; implies &#8220;progress from&#8221; (and is therefore evolutionary or developmental), while &#8220;so that&#8221; implies &#8220;progress toward&#8221; (and is therefore vitalist or teleological).</p>
<p>I like the way you put it&#8230;.</p>
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