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	<title>Comments on: Lamarck didn&#8217;t say it, Darwin did.</title>
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	<link>http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2009/03/lamarck-didnt-say-it-darwin-did/</link>
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		<title>By: koen</title>
		<link>http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2009/03/lamarck-didnt-say-it-darwin-did/comment-page-1/#comment-1305</link>
		<dc:creator>koen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;I don’t think Darwin believed in the inheritance of acquired characters. I think he believed that prior characters were more strongly inherited the more they were used, but not those characters like, say, a callus, that are acquired during maturation.&quot;
Amazing statement.  And a good illustration of the tendency to exagerate the modernity of Darwin&#039;s thinking.  We know that Mendel wasn&#039;t a Mendelian, that Newton wasn&#039;t a Newtonian, Maxwell no Maxwellian. And so forth. It&#039;s maybe about time that someone writes the article &#039;Darwin wasn&#039;t a Darwinian.&#039;
Darwin was in reality a 100% &#039;lamarckist.&#039; In contrast with Lamarck, he even developed a &#039;lamarckian&#039; theory of heredity: pangenesis. It is true though (and of course), that his theory of evolution was in other respects much more modern than Lamarck&#039;s theory (natural selection, common descent, ...).
&quot;From the facts alluded to in the first chapter, I think there can be little doubt that use in our domestic animals strengthens and enlarges certain parts, and disuse diminishes them; and that such modifications are inherited.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I don’t think Darwin believed in the inheritance of acquired characters. I think he believed that prior characters were more strongly inherited the more they were used, but not those characters like, say, a callus, that are acquired during maturation.&#8221;<br />
Amazing statement.  And a good illustration of the tendency to exagerate the modernity of Darwin&#8217;s thinking.  We know that Mendel wasn&#8217;t a Mendelian, that Newton wasn&#8217;t a Newtonian, Maxwell no Maxwellian. And so forth. It&#8217;s maybe about time that someone writes the article &#8216;Darwin wasn&#8217;t a Darwinian.&#8217;<br />
Darwin was in reality a 100% &#8216;lamarckist.&#8217; In contrast with Lamarck, he even developed a &#8216;lamarckian&#8217; theory of heredity: pangenesis. It is true though (and of course), that his theory of evolution was in other respects much more modern than Lamarck&#8217;s theory (natural selection, common descent, &#8230;).<br />
&#8220;From the facts alluded to in the first chapter, I think there can be little doubt that use in our domestic animals strengthens and enlarges certain parts, and disuse diminishes them; and that such modifications are inherited.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: T Ryan Gregory</title>
		<link>http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2009/03/lamarck-didnt-say-it-darwin-did/comment-page-1/#comment-1124</link>
		<dc:creator>T Ryan Gregory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 11:37:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>No, natural selection was mentioned in very brief outline in obscure publications by a few people before Darwin.  Quite the opposite, acquired characters reflected the dominant view long before Lamarck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, natural selection was mentioned in very brief outline in obscure publications by a few people before Darwin.  Quite the opposite, acquired characters reflected the dominant view long before Lamarck.</p>
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		<title>By: Pedro</title>
		<link>http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2009/03/lamarck-didnt-say-it-darwin-did/comment-page-1/#comment-1122</link>
		<dc:creator>Pedro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 15:12:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Disclaimer: nevermind the poor english, I&#039;m not a native speaker! (8^P&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;i&gt;the claim that epigenetics is resurrecting &quot;Lamarckian&quot; processes is false. This is because Lamarck did not suggest that environmental exposure causes heritable changes. Darwin did say something like this, however.&lt;/i&gt;Lamarck indeed suggested that environment causes heritable changes. Chapter VII of his &lt;i&gt;Philosophie Zoologique&lt;/i&gt; is titled &lt;i&gt;&quot;On the influence of the circumstances on the actions and habits of animals, and the influence of these living bodies in modifying their organisation and structure&quot;&lt;/i&gt;, and he follows by stating his two laws (as cited by Wilkins in the 1st comment) as an explanation (or description) of the process of evolution by the inheritance of acquired traits.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;i&gt;the inheritance of acquired characters more generally is not &quot;Lamarckian&quot; either. It was the common position in his time and it persisted to an extent in Darwin&#039;s thinking.&lt;/i&gt;True. But, in your post &quot;Natural selection before Darwin&quot;, you proposed that &lt;i&gt;&quot;... [T]he idea [of natural selection] had been around for at least six decades before Darwin published the Origin, and it was not until someone of Darwin&#039;s genius developed the idea that evolution assumed its position as the underlying theme of all biology&quot;&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Likewise, the idea of inheritance of acquired traits (I.A.T.) had been around for a long time, but it was not until someone of Lamarck&#039;s genius developed the idea that it has been seriously incorporated into the evolutionary thought of XIX century. As Darwin put it in the 3rd edition of &lt;i&gt;The Origin&lt;/i&gt;, &lt;i&gt;&quot;Lamarck was the first man whose conclusions on [the evolution of species] excited much attention&quot;&lt;/i&gt;, adding that &lt;i&gt;&quot;he attributed something to the direct action of the physical conditions of life, something to the crossing of already existing forms, and much to use and disuse, that is, to the effects of habit&quot;&lt;/i&gt;. If we are to use the same standard to judge both case, Lamarck must be viewed as the champion of I.A.T. just the same way that Darwin is the champion of Natural Selection.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Disclaimer: nevermind the poor english, I&#8217;m not a native speaker! (8^P</p>
<p><i>the claim that epigenetics is resurrecting &#8220;Lamarckian&#8221; processes is false. This is because Lamarck did not suggest that environmental exposure causes heritable changes. Darwin did say something like this, however.</i>Lamarck indeed suggested that environment causes heritable changes. Chapter VII of his <i>Philosophie Zoologique</i> is titled <i>&#8220;On the influence of the circumstances on the actions and habits of animals, and the influence of these living bodies in modifying their organisation and structure&#8221;</i>, and he follows by stating his two laws (as cited by Wilkins in the 1st comment) as an explanation (or description) of the process of evolution by the inheritance of acquired traits.</p>
<p><i>the inheritance of acquired characters more generally is not &#8220;Lamarckian&#8221; either. It was the common position in his time and it persisted to an extent in Darwin&#8217;s thinking.</i>True. But, in your post &#8220;Natural selection before Darwin&#8221;, you proposed that <i>&#8220;&#8230; [T]he idea [of natural selection] had been around for at least six decades before Darwin published the Origin, and it was not until someone of Darwin&#8217;s genius developed the idea that evolution assumed its position as the underlying theme of all biology&#8221;</i>.</p>
<p>Likewise, the idea of inheritance of acquired traits (I.A.T.) had been around for a long time, but it was not until someone of Lamarck&#8217;s genius developed the idea that it has been seriously incorporated into the evolutionary thought of XIX century. As Darwin put it in the 3rd edition of <i>The Origin</i>, <i>&#8220;Lamarck was the first man whose conclusions on [the evolution of species] excited much attention&#8221;</i>, adding that <i>&#8220;he attributed something to the direct action of the physical conditions of life, something to the crossing of already existing forms, and much to use and disuse, that is, to the effects of habit&#8221;</i>. If we are to use the same standard to judge both case, Lamarck must be viewed as the champion of I.A.T. just the same way that Darwin is the champion of Natural Selection.</p>
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		<title>By: John S. Wilkins</title>
		<link>http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2009/03/lamarck-didnt-say-it-darwin-did/comment-page-1/#comment-1008</link>
		<dc:creator>John S. Wilkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[*ahem*]&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Wilkins, John S. 2001. The appearance of Lamarckism in the evolution of culture. In &lt;i&gt;Darwinism and evolutionary economics&lt;/i&gt;, edited by J. Laurent and J. Nightingale. Cheltenham UK: Edward Elgar.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;As to your second question, oddly, no. You might make a start here:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Hull, David L. 1984. Lamarck among the Anglos. In &lt;i&gt;Introduction to reprinted edition of J. B. Lamarck’s Zoological Philosophy: An Exposition with Regard to the Natural History of Animals&lt;/i&gt;. Chicago: Chicago University Press.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;However I can&#039;t say right now how well that has stood up in the light of more recent scholarship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[*ahem*]</p>
<p>Wilkins, John S. 2001. The appearance of Lamarckism in the evolution of culture. In <i>Darwinism and evolutionary economics</i>, edited by J. Laurent and J. Nightingale. Cheltenham UK: Edward Elgar.</p>
<p>As to your second question, oddly, no. You might make a start here:</p>
<p>Hull, David L. 1984. Lamarck among the Anglos. In <i>Introduction to reprinted edition of J. B. Lamarck’s Zoological Philosophy: An Exposition with Regard to the Natural History of Animals</i>. Chicago: Chicago University Press.</p>
<p>However I can&#8217;t say right now how well that has stood up in the light of more recent scholarship.</p>
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		<title>By: T Ryan Gregory</title>
		<link>http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2009/03/lamarck-didnt-say-it-darwin-did/comment-page-1/#comment-1007</link>
		<dc:creator>T Ryan Gregory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;and, if I may self-promote, published this 8 years back&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt; You may -- ref?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;and, if I may self-promote, published this 8 years back&#8221;</p>
<p> You may &#8212; ref?</p>
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		<title>By: T Ryan Gregory</title>
		<link>http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2009/03/lamarck-didnt-say-it-darwin-did/comment-page-1/#comment-1006</link>
		<dc:creator>T Ryan Gregory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Here&#039;s one - do you know of any clear articles on the notion of use and disuse in evolutionary thought that covers both Lamarck&#039;s and Darwin&#039;s thinking properly?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s one &#8211; do you know of any clear articles on the notion of use and disuse in evolutionary thought that covers both Lamarck&#8217;s and Darwin&#8217;s thinking properly?</p>
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		<title>By: John S. Wilkins</title>
		<link>http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2009/03/lamarck-didnt-say-it-darwin-did/comment-page-1/#comment-1005</link>
		<dc:creator>John S. Wilkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ah, then the problem was my lack of comprehension. Yes, I totally agree: I&#039;ve been saying that epigenetics isn&#039;t Lamarckism for years (and, if I may self-promote, published this 8 years back). I also think Lamarck deserves a better deal than he gets from the opposition of the Weismannians and the misrepresentation of his ideas by the neo-Lamarckians. Interestingly, Romanes defended Darwin against those he labelled &quot;neo-Darwinians&quot; who failed to take the master&#039;s ideas seriously on use and disuse and even pangenesis. Romanes is the only scholar to take pangenesis seriously that I can find - even Lankester didn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, then the problem was my lack of comprehension. Yes, I totally agree: I&#8217;ve been saying that epigenetics isn&#8217;t Lamarckism for years (and, if I may self-promote, published this 8 years back). I also think Lamarck deserves a better deal than he gets from the opposition of the Weismannians and the misrepresentation of his ideas by the neo-Lamarckians. Interestingly, Romanes defended Darwin against those he labelled &#8220;neo-Darwinians&#8221; who failed to take the master&#8217;s ideas seriously on use and disuse and even pangenesis. Romanes is the only scholar to take pangenesis seriously that I can find &#8211; even Lankester didn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: T Ryan Gregory</title>
		<link>http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2009/03/lamarck-didnt-say-it-darwin-did/comment-page-1/#comment-1004</link>
		<dc:creator>T Ryan Gregory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2009/03/lamarck-didnt-say-it-darwin-did/#comment-1004</guid>
		<description>I get it, and I&#039;m not disagreeing with you.  The post includes three arguments.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;One, that the claim that epigenetics is resurrecting &quot;Lamarckian&quot; processes is false.  This is because Lamarck did not suggest that environmental exposure causes heritable changes.  Darwin did say something like this, however.  I am not giving Darwin credit for it, I am criticizing the claims that epigenetics is &quot;Lamarckian&quot;.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Two, the inheritance of acquired characters more generally is not &quot;Lamarckian&quot; either.  It was the common position in his time and it persisted to an extent in Darwin&#039;s thinking.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Three, use and disuse was not thrown out when Darwin came.  Darwin maintained some aspect of it also.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I am not claiming that Darwin was just a Lamarckian; my point is just that the history implied in claims of &quot;Lamarckian&quot; processes is vastly oversimplified.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I get it, and I&#8217;m not disagreeing with you.  The post includes three arguments.</p>
<p>One, that the claim that epigenetics is resurrecting &#8220;Lamarckian&#8221; processes is false.  This is because Lamarck did not suggest that environmental exposure causes heritable changes.  Darwin did say something like this, however.  I am not giving Darwin credit for it, I am criticizing the claims that epigenetics is &#8220;Lamarckian&#8221;.</p>
<p>Two, the inheritance of acquired characters more generally is not &#8220;Lamarckian&#8221; either.  It was the common position in his time and it persisted to an extent in Darwin&#8217;s thinking.</p>
<p>Three, use and disuse was not thrown out when Darwin came.  Darwin maintained some aspect of it also.  </p>
<p>I am not claiming that Darwin was just a Lamarckian; my point is just that the history implied in claims of &#8220;Lamarckian&#8221; processes is vastly oversimplified.</p>
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		<title>By: John S. Wilkins</title>
		<link>http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2009/03/lamarck-didnt-say-it-darwin-did/comment-page-1/#comment-1003</link>
		<dc:creator>John S. Wilkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ryan, either you aren&#039;t getting it, or I am not expressing myself clearly (the latter being the default hypothesis).&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Darwin did think that use and disuse influenced heredity, but it was not the &lt;i&gt;source&lt;/i&gt; of the traits. It merely &quot;strengthened or weakened&quot; the inheritance of traits that occurred for other reasons, which we independent of the lifstyle of the organisms. So using eyesight meant it would be more strongly inherited, and not using it meant that it would tend to disappear as in cave fishes. But the origins of eyesight are not based on the acquisition of sightedness by exercise during the animal&#039;s life.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Lamarck, at least as he is often interpreted, held that by the action of the organism under &quot;besoin&quot; (or need) novel traits would be acquired and passed on. Darwin did not hold that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ryan, either you aren&#8217;t getting it, or I am not expressing myself clearly (the latter being the default hypothesis).</p>
<p>Darwin did think that use and disuse influenced heredity, but it was not the <i>source</i> of the traits. It merely &#8220;strengthened or weakened&#8221; the inheritance of traits that occurred for other reasons, which we independent of the lifstyle of the organisms. So using eyesight meant it would be more strongly inherited, and not using it meant that it would tend to disappear as in cave fishes. But the origins of eyesight are not based on the acquisition of sightedness by exercise during the animal&#8217;s life.</p>
<p>Lamarck, at least as he is often interpreted, held that by the action of the organism under &#8220;besoin&#8221; (or need) novel traits would be acquired and passed on. Darwin did not hold that.</p>
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		<title>By: T Ryan Gregory</title>
		<link>http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/2009/03/lamarck-didnt-say-it-darwin-did/comment-page-1/#comment-1002</link>
		<dc:creator>T Ryan Gregory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It&#039;s hard to argue that Darwin did not consider use and disuse when he had a major discussion of it in the Origin.  In any case, the larger point was that Lamarck did not say that simple exposure to an environment causes heritable variation, whereas Darwin did.  Therefore, the argument that epigenetics shows a Lamarckian process rather than one more like something Darwin invoked, is inaccurate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s hard to argue that Darwin did not consider use and disuse when he had a major discussion of it in the Origin.  In any case, the larger point was that Lamarck did not say that simple exposure to an environment causes heritable variation, whereas Darwin did.  Therefore, the argument that epigenetics shows a Lamarckian process rather than one more like something Darwin invoked, is inaccurate.</p>
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